Stuff to consider

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Stuff to consider

Post by DewBunny on Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:20 am

Ok, so no one has to take this seriously but I felt like giving my thoughts on the matter. I have sent this to each and every MOD as I think this will stir up ideas, thoughts and questions.

Ok, so after carefully looking through the finer aspects of Bleach, I see a few things that seem highly out of place.

Vasto Lorde (最上大虚 (ヴァストローデ), vasuto rōde; Japanese for "Highest Great Hollow") are the most-powerful class of Menos, and the final stage in the Menos evolutionary line. They appear to be about the size of a Human and apparently appear to be completely humanoid. They are said to surpass an average Captain-Class Shinigami in battle abilities.
Vasto Lorde are the least common form of Menos, but the exact population is unknown. Tōshirō stated that only a few are known to exist, and are believed to reside within the very deepest parts of Hueco Mundo. Apart from the need to cannibalize even more Hollows, any special requirements for the creation of a Vasto Lorde are unknown.
Tōshirō claims that at least ten of them, under Sōsuke Aizen's control, would be enough to defeat all of Soul Society. This is no small coincidence, as Aizen himself states to Gin Ichimaru that he needs to gather enough Vasto Lordes to complete his ten-member Espada. It seems that Aizen has important plans with them, but the only details revealed about those plans are the mere wish to gather all of them together. The Espada ARE Vasto Lorde.



Now please look at the Stats on this page:
http://bleachr.forumotion.net/templates-and-rules-f76/new-stat-system-in-effect-immediately-t650.htm

Please Note:
Now while the Vasto Lorde are supposed to be of higher skills than the Captains, only ONE Espada has stats enough to surpass them. The rest, WHO ARE ALSO VASTO LORDE, are equal or weaker. Now while I think it would be unfair to make every Espada stronger than the Captains and yet still get stronger as their numbers increase, I do infact believe that this should be true for Espada 3 and higher. And no the number choice is not because I am the 3rd Espada. Espada 3 and higher were the only Espada that were not defeated by a single person. Each of these Espada had shown to outmatch those that they were fighting and only fell when the Vaizards showed up and helped the Shinigami by fight WITH them.

To correct this, I would suggest either upping some of the Espada stats, or downing the Shinigami stats. Something else to note is that downing the Shinigami stats would not be totally unfair. There are 13 places in which someone is able to be a Captain while there are two fewer spots to be an Espada. And with the current stats, only two Espada currently match them in power, making the Espada fairly weak. But please also note that every Espada is supposed to be a Vato Lorde.

Now look at the Hollow's Stats.

An Arrancar is the stage after the Adjuchas, yet looking at the stats, we have two Espada that are weaker than them. How is that even possible? We even have some Arrancar who are weaker than the Gillian, who are a step below the Adjuchas. This STATS system is flawed in many ways.


I have other things that I noticed such as the Release stats, but I think I will keep that to myself until later on. Once again, you all may completely ignore this if you so choose. I was only sharing my part and hoping to get some gears turning on how the Stats system can be fixed to make everything fit the Manga/Anime and yet, still allow for no one side to become OP.

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by DewBunny on Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:45 am

ok to start, Vasto lordes are weaker than Espada due to the fact that espada are evolved forms. THIS HAS BEEN DEBATED BEHIND THE SCENES. What it comes down to is Rukia who is an unseated officer with the ability to become one. She defeated the lowest espada and still came out alive. This means at the espada who are not stated as all vasto are defeat-able by Captain class shinigami and possibly 3rd seat at lowest.

Moving to espada. I agree though i would move to 4 the top half should be able to fight on par with a captain unreleased. Ulquiorra killed ichigo several times so no.4 is at least captain level. Although i won't say I want all espada to be the same with the top five and lower five having stats that match Captains and vice captain respectively that would fit the canon more appropriately. I do agree that those need to be fixed up a bit.

The captains, as it stands we do not have all 13 open so espada has equal or better numbers. the reason Vasto points WILL NOT surpass captain is Toshiro said "A Vasto Lorde would surely give a captain trouble" This means a vasto would be lower and the captain would be guaranteed the win but not without cost. they should be situated at roughly VC level.

Save Release stats till this is sorted.

That being said we need a discussion for stats that would fit the manga a bit better. One thing i can recommend is that we build from leader stats down and set them at 150 to begin. this gives more room for appropriate gaps and plugging races in between other ranks.

This is how this discussion will go so it stays a discussion and not a B**** session.

No.1 ~ Keep it civil. Don't just say you're wrong because you feel you're right. If you say some one is wrong explain why. Keep this on topic.

No.2 ~ Keep this in discussion. don't bring your site probs in here and say "My app needs checking" Offer an opinion on topic. any comment posted without an on topic base will be deleted.

No.3 ~ No personal problems here. I'm not debating your problems i'm debating serious site holes

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Yaguri Issui on Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:32 am

Well most of what I wanted to say has been mentioned already lmao.

OK so I put together what I think would be pretty accurate to both the site and the actual Manga/Anime.

The Espada were said to be stronger, so the top three are stronger than Captains. Espada 4 and lower are weaker. I have it set so a vice captain is equal to Espada 6, which is as close as I could get. I took Rukia beating the 9th Espada into account there.

As for the Oracion and the Vaizard, they were destined to be close. Both are pretty much Espada but with the Oracion as the more complete version as Aizen had said. But none the less, they were Captain who gained power. With that in mind, they should be stronger than the Captains. I also did the Bounto and Quincy as equal because of the Filler. We have so few active rping Quincy and Bounto that I suggest that there only be 1 of each level allowed. This is because they are supposed to be almost extinct. This would also start filling up the Soul Society once Bount and Quincy fill up which still may take a while.

The Vasto Lorde is as strong as the 4th Espada in saying that the 4th Espada and higher were Vasto Lorde when turned into Arrancar.

Now please remember that there are allowed to be 13 of each seat of the Shinigami. So there can be 13: 120point people while there can only be 1 of each Vaizard, Oracion, Espada, Quincy and Bounto of each Seat/Lvl.

I tried my best at what I think would fit the sit and the Manga. This is just my idea so if someone does not like it, that is their own opinion. You are allowed to share your own ideas and remark on mine. Feel free to completely ignore mine also.

Here is my suggestion:

Shinigami
Rank Stat Points
Captain Commander 150
Captain 130
Vice-Captain120
3rd Seat 110
4th Seat 100
5th Seat 90
6th Seat 80
Officer Recruit70

Vizard
Rank Stat Points
Vizard Leader 150
Vizard Lieutenant140
Vizard Kido Master/Swordsman130
Vizard Recruit 120

Los Obscura Oración
Rank Stat Points
Los Obscura Oración Leader150
Los Obscura Oración General140
Los Obscura Oración Lieutenant130

Arrancar
Rank Stat Points
Espada 1145
Espada 2140
Espada 3135
Espada 4130
Espada 5125
Espada 6120
Espada 7115
Espada 8110
Espada 9105
Espada 10100
Privarion Espada95
Arrancar 90

Hollow
Rank Stat Points
Vasto Lorde130
Adjuchas85
Gillian/Menos Grande80
Menos/Hollow75

Bount
Rank Stat Points
Bount Leader 150
Lvl. 5 Bount 130
Lvl. 4 Bount120
Lvl. 3 Bount110
Lvl. 2 Bount100
Lvl. 1 Bount90

Quincy
Rank Stat Points
Quincy Leader 150
Lvl. 5 Quincy130
Lvl. 4 Quincy120
Lvl. 3 Quincy110
Lvl. 2 Quincy100
Lvl. 1 Quincy90

Human
Rank Stat Points
Advanced Human120
Special Human100
Gifted Human80
Human60


And please also note that while there are stats on this site, they are not everything. It all depends on how well you rp, strategize, and play the game. Teaming up also helps lol.


Last edited by Yaguri Issui on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by DewBunny on Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:59 am

looks good to me but i'm out of it having not slept in closing to 20 hours so i'll re read after a nap

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Koujetsu Hanagayu on Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:38 am

Gillian < Adjuchas <Vasto Lorde

Arrancar are different from those 3 as they have had their mask broken off. The Espada are the top 10 Arrancar in terms of power.

As we have yet to see any real Vasto in the Manga/Anime, it is hard to judge, but the Espada are Adjuchas level Arrancar. From what Ive seen, Wonderwiess would be Vasto level Arrancar, as in one chapter Starkk commented on Aizen being anoyed, and must want to finish the battle if he was out.

Also, Wonderweiss has a german name instead of Spanish.

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Kaji-Kanto on Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:02 pm

*yawns and stretches* I may as well do some work here. Since i am the one who tweaked the stats the last time.

I wold like to point something out.

An Arrancar (破面 (アランカル), arankaru) is a Hollow that has removed its mask and has gained Shinigami-like powers.[1] The name "Arrancar" is a Spanish verb meaning "to remove" or "to rip off" (the kanji used means "ripped mask"), a reference to an Arrancar's removal of its Hollow mask.

That is an arrancar, It specifies no level that an arrancar is most likely created at. This being you must take account variations and such. An arrancar made at the level of Gillian is feasible and so is anything below this.


Hollow To shinigami relations:



A hollow level one can take out a recruit shinigami but is more susceptible to a 6th through 10th seat and every rank higher easily trouncing them. The matches go up through the hollow rankings in this same manner.

A gillian the next step after a normal hollow the foot soldiers of the meno’s class. Strong but very very dumb They are easily trounced by a captain or even a vice captain as seen and shown. However there massive size take a lot of effort to dispatch that is the only reason as to why there are strong enough to cause trouble. Stat wise they are weaker than a 3rd seat however a third seat would have trouble with there gigantic physical properties.

An adjuchas is the next step after Gillian and this is where they develop a brain and become more capable of fighting. They are stronger than a 3rd seat but are able to survive against a vice captain for a while but easily trounced by a captain.

Finally the Vastro Lordes, said to match or even surpass a captain in basic battle abilities. Keyword Basic. If it was left to a hand in hand fight a vastro would trump a due to it being a hollow versus a shinigami. However you must realize that the high power of a captain when in full whim (even without releasing) Could take out almost any normal hollow. But as you have stated a Vastro would surely give a captain trouble so this is why they become a blip on the stat radar registering close to a captain.

Hollow to arrancar relations:


Now as i stated at the beginning
An Arrancar (破面 (アランカル), arankaru) is a Hollow that has removed its mask and has gained Shinigami-like powers.[1] The name "Arrancar" is a Spanish verb meaning "to remove" or "to rip off" (the kanji used means "ripped mask"), a reference to an Arrancar's removal of its Hollow mask.

That is an arrancar, It specifies no level that an arrancar is most likely created at. This being you must take account variations and such. An arrancar made at the level of Gillian is feasible and so is anything below this.
NOTE: The main difference of power between arrancar and hollows is the fact that they have a zanpaktou and therefor have access to a resurrection to become much stronger.
An Arrancar of Level One from here on out is now being defined by this system as an arrancar that was made by any Hollow below Gillian This is why there stats are below Gillian's.

An Arrancar of level two from here on out is now defined as something of gillian or higher level The reason why there stats match is because an arrancar is judged by power for the top 10. After this it lowers to normal arrancar which are easily trounced by most Espada. It being stated that a normal arrancar could never hope to take on to anything close to the 8th Espada unknown of the 10 & 9th but it is highly doubted.

A privarion Espada is an Espada carrying a number after 300 and this is because they are FORMER! Espada and were kicked out due to major injury or because of a misdeed that caused great shame to them. They are on par with the lowest Espada's but have been weakened from there past skills. (Much like Grimmjow losing an arm and being dropped off from 6th Espada.)

An Espada 10 & 9 would be a gillian classed hollow transformation and is on par to a privarion for numbers of reasons. They retain more of a hollowed look than humanoid but are much more developed than an arrancar. (Much like how Yammy still had that dinasoaur-ish look to him or bearish depending on what you want.)

Espada 6 & 7 & 8 Are Adjuchas classed transformation. They are stat wise on par with adjuchas but can easily trounce them due to there Resurrection. however weaker than a captain the only thing that can be annoying is there resurrection which brings them up to 5 higher than the base stats of a captain.

Espada 5 & 4 are advanced Adjuchas classed transformations. They are base stat wise on par with a vice captains but when ressurecticon is activated they are +10 of a captains base stat. This means they would prove to be a handful to captain and would be an annoyance.

Espada 3 & 2 are the Vastro lord classed transformation and are on par with a vastro lorde in base stats however they could easily take down a captain after ressurecticon has taken place in base stats and would be a major handful to a single captain thus there usually taking two captains to take down one of these espada. Not to mention these espada also have the possibility of having Segunda.

Espada 1 is an advanced vastro lorde classed transformation and is the biggest handful to a captain matching there base stats. This espada would defiantly need two normal captains to be defeated.

Esapda 0 the master class transformation the one ‘special’ espada that is beyond thought process and possibility. Able to take down a captain with slight ease and needed no matter what either the captain commander or two captains to have a chance to defeat. [Vastro lorde + a little extra when the transformation process occurred)

I will explain this more if this does not clear up any confusion but really if you have any problems with this i don't think the base stats are what need redone but the release stats are.

NOW I will violate all three of the rules.

You're wrong because i want to feel like i'm right!
My apps need checking!
And does this t-shirt make me look fat?

Sorry i needed some idiocy in this post i hate coming off as a stiff.
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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Koujetsu Hanagayu on Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:33 pm

Lol, kaji, i wasnt even going on about the stats haha.

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by DewBunny on Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:04 pm

glare

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Fujimaru on Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:34 pm

I like the stats but I think the Primera should be stronger along with the humans =/
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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Yaguri Issui on Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:57 am

Ok, that is a good idea. I will let you in on why they are the way they are.

If the Primera is any stronger, it would collide with the Oracion who are supposed to be ruling over them. I see little order with the weaker ones ruling over the stronger guys. We could however drop the stat points of everyone below the Primera but that would then increase the distance between everyone, thus making them weaker.

And incase anyone has noticed, I did leave out the 0 Espada. In the Manga, the 0 Espada is actually the 10th Espada but only in his Resurrecion. When I made the Stats, I was keeping this in mind and pondering over the idea of the 10th Espada having a MUCH higher Stat increase when going into Ressurecion. The Stat increase would have to be enough to surpass the Primera Espada. In my opinion, a great power should come with a great weakness. As such, I thought that being the Weakest Espada while not in Resurrecion would be the trade in for having the greatest strength while in the Resurrecion. This would then also follow the manga.

Now as for the humans, they are a race that has no boundaries. The Vasto Lorde are supposed to be few in numbers and as such, should be regulated. The humans however have had nothing said about them being regulated. If it is raised by 20 points, almost anyone could be as strong as a Captain. Unless the amount of Advanced Humans were to be regulated by keeping a select few, I see them quickly overpowering every race. I also went off the fact that no Advanced Human from the anime has yet to beat a Captain. Chad was just barely able to defeat a Privarion Espada and quickly fell to the 5th Espada, which in my stats is only a few points away from an Advanced human.

But like I said, these are only my own ideas and my reasons as to why the stats I made are the way they are. I am sure the admins and mods will be making their own stats which they will believe will be best suited for the site. However, if mine was used as even a starting base I would be honored. Glad that someone has mentioned my stats and their own thoughts. It seems that my understanding has for the most part, appeased one person ^_^.

Hope there is a topic on Release Stats one day as well. My Stats on here coincide with Release Stats that I came up with. Well, I will continue to read and wait as to what the Mods have discussed and decided. Might even be similar to my own ideas, which could be cool. It's always nice to see that you are thinking what the Mods are lol.
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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Fujimaru on Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:26 pm

(I'm the only one making short posts xD)
I think it's funny tho that the 0 espada even in his released form, is getting his butt handed to him by two captains easily in which one isn't trying and the other hasn't even used shikai. *YAMI SUCKS* 0 espada = best? Nope lol just a title

Primera = Took on two vizards and a captain and put up an awesome challenge, defeating the two vizards and had bad luck with the drunk =/
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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Koujetsu Hanagayu on Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:41 pm

A good idea Yaguri, didnt see that spoiler before, but keep in mind that the Vaizards are as strong as Captains, etc, normally for the reason that the mask gives them another stat bonus. As for Humans, with the leveling system, once we get that in place, that will be worked on also.

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Re: Stuff to consider

Post by Yaguri Issui on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:24 pm

Koujetsu Hanagayu wrote:A good idea Yaguri, didnt see that spoiler before, but keep in mind that the Vaizards are as strong as Captains, etc, normally for the reason that the mask gives them another stat bonus. As for Humans, with the leveling system, once we get that in place, that will be worked on also.

Yeah, don't know why that didn't register with me the first time lol. Well I edited the stats by increasing the numbers of everyone except the Vizard and Oracion. The Vizard and Oracion, like you said, are merely just Captains with an added Stat Boost. This I think made the layout better. This decreased the gap between the leaders and the Captains to just 20 points, making it less of a leap.
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